Comments on: Simple Sourdough Starter

By: Toluca Gourmet

Toluca Gourmet — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

My starter did very well using Carri’s excellent recipe. I would suggest taking out the cabbage after a day, the starter produced some water at the bottom that I think must have come from the leaves.
Carri’s ratio for the dough was a little low on flour for me. I probably added almost another part flour to the dough. Which surprised me as I’m in So California and it’s almost 90* outside.

By: chris brandow

chris brandow — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

another data point for the source of cabbage’s effect: i took home a handful of shredded red cabbage from our local Souplantation (certainly washed, certainly not organic) and I had a very nice strong bubbling starter within two days.

FWIW

By: Lisa

Lisa — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

A friend sent me this link upon hearing about my Silverton starter that’s almost 2 years old and thriving. This starter is so strong, that when I was away from home for 3 months due to a severe knee injury, surgery et al.., and the feedings were few and far between because friends and family forgot, it still kept it’s strength and flavor. In fact, I don’t think I’d call it ‘Nancy Silverton’s grape method starter’ anymore, as I’ve futzed with so many different flours, grains, hydrations, used it in mixed starters for new starters etc..that it’s taken on an identity of it’s own. I actually named it – *drum roll, please* Herbie..LOL

By: babushka bakery

babushka bakery — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

I tossed some chopped coleslaw mix into a portion of my Silverton sour. Got very fast fermentation and a sweet smell. Even turned pink! (chopped cabbage bleeds). I think the professor needs to consider the role of sulpher in the life span of the yeast organism and the bacteria found naturally in these starters. I have a nice photo comparison if it’s possible to upload. Re; Sherri; I would advise using a higher gluten flour, more water,pinch of commercial yeast, oven temp to 450 and bake loaf to 200 degrees.

By: carri

carri — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

sherri, I would make a guess that it’s your dry (compared to our humid, rainforest-like humidity) air, the flour is sucking up lots more liquid than mine, I think…that might explain Ruhlman’s slack dough, since Cleveland is more humid, even, than up here…add more water until you get a dough that feels right to you, the starter should have plenty of power to make it rise!
We often mix the dough and then retard in the fridge for 8 hours or so…let come to room temp, form into loaves, rise again…then bake. I go for 195-200 degree interior temp.

By: Bob delGrosso

Bob delGrosso — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Right! I forgot about the water in the starter. All other bases covered, 75% percent water should produce a lighter crumb. Like Carri implied.

What Ruhlman said too

By: sherri

sherri — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Thank you for your prompt answers BdG, Carri and Ruhlman.
1. I weighed the ingredients, per instructions: 100 g water, 100 g starter, 200 g King Arthur AP flour.
2. The dough had a single rise 2-3 hours until doubled in size, punched down and rose a second time while oven pre-heated to 500 degrees.
3. Steam-assist in the form of water poured on cast iron griddle pre-heated in oven when bread was put into oven.
4. Temperature lowered to 425 and baked +/- 35 minutes, until interior registered 185 degrees.
5. Let cool.

I have been baking for a while and thought this was a very stiff dough when I was kneading it, so yes, I did sneak a little extra water into it.

25% humidity here, house is 80 degrees w/AC.

Maybe I am more accustomed to the wet doughs I have been working with recently but I’ll keep trying because I like the starter and want this to work. More hints appreciated.
Thanks.

By: carri

carri — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

um, in this case isn’t more of an 75% hydration rate since there is water in the starter (which is made up of 1/2 water, 1/2 flour)…sherri, what kind of flour are you using? is it dry where you are? As Bob said, add more water for a lighter crumb.

By: ruhlman

ruhlman — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

sherri,

it’s also important to let the dough rise after it’s been shaped. if you shaped it and baked it right away it would be very dense.

After shaping the dough let it rise for an hour, or better, shape the dough, put it in the fridge over night, pull it out an hour before baking. Try baking in a dutch oven covered for the first half hour for an awesome crust.

By: sherri

sherri — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Oops, typo on my post above. lhe salt should read 2% by weight, not .2 as written.

By: Bob delGrosso

Bob delGrosso — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Sherri
1 part water: 2 parts flour is a 50% hydration rate and will produce a dense loaf. That’s just the way it is. Add more water to lighten the crumb.

By: sherri

sherri — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Am I the only person to have had trouble with the bread recipe itself? I found the ratio (2 flour:1starter:1water:.2salt, all by weight) to produce a *very* dense loaf. The starter itself is wizard; thanks for the great cabbage leaf truc.

By: carri

carri — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

ATCer, it could be that something funny got into the starter to make it go, though, it seems like it just over fed itself.(in this case, we throw away all but a pound and feed it a pound each of flour and water) Bob delGrosso, might have some thoughts on this as well!

By: Bob delGrosso

Bob delGrosso — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Carri & ACTer

This is a classic case of leuconostoc bacterial contamination. These bacteria are partially responsible for the fermetation of saurkraut and require anerobic ccnditions to thrive.

Because ACTers initial was “too thick” it was, in essense, anerobic. For it to be aerobic it would have had to be thinned and aerated (by stirring). When ACTer added the cabbage he/she inoculated it with leconostoc bacteria which produce lots of gas, then lots of stink gas as the colony matures.

One cure for this is to lower the pH with cooked pineapple juice. These bacteria do not do well at low pH but the wild yeasts do.

By: carri

carri — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

nice rip BdG…I knew we could count on you! ACTer…next time wash the cabbage leaf off in the water, then mix with the flour. if it does the same thing after a couple of days, try the pineapple juice thing Bob suggests…you may have a ph problem.

By: Robert

Robert — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Alaskans are a crafty bunch. Imagine my consternation after keeping a Nancy Silverton grape starter fed and watered for all these months just to realize that Alaskan cabbage is the easy way to great bread. I have only gone through the process to simulate Varasano’s pizza.

I want to know Carri’s opinion on pizza in Homer. Finn’s or Fat Olive’s?

By: Carri

Carri — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Robert…it depends which one I’m closest to. Since I am good friends with both it’s merely a matter of proximity when I’m hungry!

By: ATCer

ATCer — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Here’s what happened to me. I’d like to hear if anyone knows what went wrong.

Day 1: Mixed 8 ounces by weight water and flour. I thought the mixture was too thick to do anything. I added an outer leaf of red cabbage from garden.

Day 2: I was surprised to see that the mixture had thinned out and had a lot of bubbling action. I added another 6 ounces flour and water and mixed it all together. I left the leaf in mixture. I didn’t have time to make anything with the starter that day.

Day 3: Mixture had overflowed the cup during the night, but was now flat, broken and very stinky. Similar to a very strong washed rind cheese. I added another dose of flour and water. After a couple hours of no action and putrid smell, I tossed it.

Should I try again? What went wrong?

By: Rhonda

Rhonda — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

Ok, looking forward to reading this thread tommorrow for an Ass-Whippin, but I stand my ground.

Bacteria, yes, of course, but I do want some confirmation that the CD gas is in the equation.

By: Ziggy

Ziggy — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:00:00 +0000

The wild yeast is contained in the flour. All you need is flour and water to create a sourdough levain. It’s not rocket science and our ancestors have been doing it for thousands of years. Yeast that lives on cabbage, grapes, and other such items is yeast that is natural to those ingredients, not flour.
I’m amused by all the hysteria over a very simple process.